ECIBS recently talked to the writer Jonathan Pappas about two new books, one on Woody Guthrie and the other on Bob Dylan. Dylan and Guthrie are often linked together in the popular imagination, and Pappas talked about that connection, and about “authenticity,” the separation of myth and legend, about pop music, politics and aesthetics, and what Guthrie and Dylan ultimately are all about. It happened that on the morning of the interview, Bob Dylan had issued a blistering statement responding to criticism over the question of censorship and his set list choices regarding his April 2011 concerts in China.
Discussed in this interview: Bob Dylan in America by Sean Wilentz Doubleday 2010, Woody Guthrie: American Radical by Will Kaufman, University of Illinois Press 2011, Chronicles: Volume One by Bob Dylan, Simon and Schuster 2004, and Bound for Glory by Woody Guthrie, originally published by E.P. Dutton in 1943.
ECIBS: It’s sort of perfect that Dylan published his statement today, the day we’d planned to sit down and talk about political musicians and the Guthrie book and Bob Dylan in America.
JP: People are what, unhappy that Dylan didn’t play the “protest songs” that they wanted him to play? Accusing him of bowing to some shadowy notion of Chinese censorship? I like that he ends his press announcement with a taunt to all the people trying to write books about him. I can guarantee you that people who want or wanted to write about Dylan, good and bad alike, were pole-axed when he came out with his own book, which is so lucid and good, because he took something from them.
ECIBS: Which was?
JP: Their reason to exist. Actually in April, the Bob Dylan In America author Sean Wilentz in the New Yorker had the ultimate rejoinder to the Maureen Dowd column in the New York Times that helped kick off the whole current controversy. He points out how Dowd made a fool of herself. Wilentz is my hero in a way for summing it up perfectly.* He also calls Dowd clueless and smug, and I agree. Dowd and the “Human Rights Watch” were mad that he didn’t strum Blowin’ in the Wind? Sorry, they can’t dictate what subversion is, whether Dylan should be fomenting dissent or how he should foment it, or with which songs.
ECIBS: Dylan’s own book about Dylan looms larger for you than the others?
JP: I thought that we’d talk about Guthrie first, but yes I think Chronicles will keep echoing because it’s excellent by any measure. We’ll see its influence and reputation grow. The first time I read it, I finished it in one night, in a delirium like I had a fever. It wasn’t because of my Dylan fandom, it was the book itself, the book was lightning. It has all the history and character and humor of big novels, all the striving and scrabbling of so-called “American tales.” For our purposes here, it’s also about performance, about self-creation, about songs, and about choosing a path.
ECIBS: So, would you call yourself a Dylan or Guthrie scholar?
JP: Hell yeah! No way, not really. I would not claim to be a Dylan scholar, and my lack of audience-recorded pirated bootlegs bars me even from the label “superfan.” I can say that I’ve heard and listen to all the officially-released songs, that I own it all, that I’ve read the major bios and all the print interviews that he’s done. I haven’t been to Hibbing or anything. I haven’t interviewed Suze or Baez. (Laughs.) But I’ve seen him in concert about twenty-five times, and continue to go to shows.
In the case of Guthrie, I’m a reader of the bios, a big listener of the music, and in the past have been a sucker for the whole train-jumping cowboy-Okie mythos. But again, I haven’t camped out in the Library of Congress or cozied up to the living Guthries. But Will Kaufman has. And now, it turns out, I’m a fan of Kaufman too.
ECIBS: But not the old legend of the rail-riding dust-bowl Okie?
JP: Well, it has to do with Kaufman’s book. If anything I am more of a fan now of Guthrie in both a musical and a pop sense, and I’m much more of an admirer in the political sense. Kaufman’s book will deepen your understanding of the guy. The cornpone-folkie-troubadour image is limiting, inaccurate. The most important thing to Guthrie was the politics, or, more accurately, human rights. Rights for workers. Union organization. And later, additional issues like race. People know that, but they may not know the extent to which it is true. They will, after reading American Radical. Guthrie’s main reason for existing–for singing and writing–was the differential in the power structure, it was about evening the score between the haves and the have-nots. Kaufman says he lived “his productive life on the warpath–against poverty, political oppression, censorship, capitalism, fascism, racism, and, ultimately, war itself.” That’s why the book is called American Radical.
ECIBS: That’s Kaufman’s angle? Is it what sets this apart from the other Guthrie books?
JP: It’s a political biography. You won’t see much about riding the rails like a hobo here, or about the succession of wives and mistresses. All of the dirt Kaufman deals here is through the frame of Guthrie’s ideological commitment to causes. The attitudes and allegiances were prone to shifting and swaying, but the level of involvement and the commitment to causes were permanent conditions.
Guthrie could self-mythologize with the best of them–look at his Bound for Glory, it’s a novel, full of fabrications and exaggerations–but at his core Guthrie was a tireless advocate for groups he felt were getting the shaft. A socialist. At Dylan’s core, on the other hand, Dylan is an artist. They both seem to be true to themselves and to their nature.
EC
IBS: Guthrie was authentically a radical?
JP: There’s that word, authentic, which is an unwieldy word. He was a radical to his bones. That’s the case that Kaufman makes. In the intro to Kaufman’s book alone, Guthrie has all these epithets applied to him, some from Guthrie’s contemporaries, and many brought up sardonically by Kaufman to point out their failure to meet the mark of who Guthrie was. Phrases like “America’s balladeer,” “officially sanctified national treasure,” “Saint Woody” “The Okie bard,” “America’s favorite hobo.” But throughout the book you get these phrases that Kaufman feels are more accurate. Like “radical activist,” and the chapter title “lonesome radical soul,” about the post-WWII years when he describes Guthrie in a “blaze of proletarian glory.”
ECIBS: From what I’ve seen just in the intro, and to Kaufman’s credit, Kaufman is also thorough and straight-up about Guthrie’s disappointing qualities, like not tipping in restaurants, or his alleged youthful racism, or the fact that he bizarrely loved Stalin his whole life. I mean, Guthrie died in 1967. There was plenty of time to denounce any early affection for Uncle Joe.So Guthrie was a radical, whereas Dylan was what? A “prophet”?
JP: Well, I said artist. You’re saying “prophet” as a joke, but the hysterical press was writing that for a while, forty years ago. I don’t think that idea survives to this day, that he was a prognosticator or the spokesman for his generation. Dylan’s language is songs. It’s too bad that Wilentz doesn’t quote from Dylan’s songs at greater length, as Kaufman does expertly and thoroughly with Guthrie’s. Maybe that’s a rights thing, I don’t know. But Dylan speaks very frankly about this interviews. In his biography, in Scorsese’s film (No Direction Home.) He talks about it. He goes out of his way to not be an enigma, but people call him one.
THE RIGHT MAN FOR THE JOB

Guthrie and Pete Seeger
ECIBS: Why?
JP: I don’t know. Because he doesn’t sit on the couch on late-night talk shows? He wrote his autobiography. He did a 60 Minutes interview, how much more mainstream and open can he get?
ECIBS: They chopped that interview, didn’t they? They aired, like, two minutes.
JP: Because he talked about songs! He wants to talk about songs. For an example check out his 1997 Newsweek interview with the novelist David Gates, who’s also a musician. The current album was Time Out of Mind, which Wilentz writes about. But I have to say, Wilentz writes about, or tries to write about, almost every single Bob Dylan album. It’s a long book. Anyway I remember being impressed by that, that they hired a fiction writer who knew music to interview Dylan, they put it on the cover, they let the two people talk about songs. Everybody quotes that interview, Wilentz included, though he buries Gates’ name in the notes. And Dylan tells Gates, “I believe in the songs,” and in about five other ways, tells Gates that he finds “religiosity in the songs.”
ECIBS: Maybe you should interview Dylan for ECIBS.
JP: Gates and Scorsese and others already interviewed him, it’s all there. I met Gates when I was in grad school, and asked him about that interview. He said, “We agreed on what the saddest song in the world was.”
ECIBS: What was it?
JP: I can’t remember, I didn’t write it down.
ECIBS: I retract the offer. You’re the wrong guy to go interview people.
JP: I know, it’s awful of me. But that’s funny, yeah I used to think that would be a dream to interview him, but the truth is I probably don’t know enough about music to interview Dylan. He’s a musicologist, he wants to talk about the structure of songs in a way that is beyond my verse-chorus-verse pop-music knowledge of songs. Read his book. Always hire a songwriter to interview Dylan, or at least a musician.
ECIBS: Not a poet?
JP: You could hire a poet. The right poet would do fine. But my impression is that Dylan would rather talk to the songwriter, that it would be a meatier interview.
ECIBS: Does Wilentz talk to Dylan?
JP: If he did he doesn’t mention it. He treats Dylan with both realism and reverence. He’s a historian and a stickler for details. He’s interested in the music, which ultimately is what Dylan is all about. But he tries to do it all, to mixed effect. Some of the most compelling writing occurs in “you-are-there”-type accounts of recording sessions, like the chapter about Blonde on Blonde. Wilentz writes really well about artistic inspiration, the writing process, the recording process. He’s done his homework. Topically the book’s a bit of a mess but it’s littered with great stuff. I think that, I don’t think I’m being unfair to Wilentz, he admits in his own intro that Bob Dylan in America is kind of a dog’s breakfast.
ECIBS: A what?
JP: A hodgepodge, a catch-all. It’s a little all-over-the-place. A collection of pieces on various subjects, under the umbrella of a designed-to-sell title. There are lots of Dylans, and Wilentz takes you through a bunch of them, in a process-oriented way, which I like.
ECIBS: It’s always been my impression that Dylan follows his own path, trusts himself. So what about this issue of “fandom,” what about the thing of “loving” an artist? Is there a Dylan to love or is it just a series of intellectually constructed personae and idioms?
JP: There are many Dylans to quote “love”—people usually pick just one, and become fiercely protective of that persona that they perceive. He brings that out in people, I think. But then we’re talking about pop music, not art or the context of the songs, which is fine, to talk about pop music. Most Dylan fans have one Dylan that they adhere to most fiercely. Blonde on Blonde Dylan is a good one, or Highway 61 Revisited. Mine is a specific ‘70’s Dylan, like a lot of people, but not just Blood On The Tracks, more specifically the Dylan of Desire. 1975-76. The Rolling Thunder Revue Dylan. Did you ever read The Rolling Thunder Logbook by Sam Shepard? Or hear that official bootleg?
ECIBS: I’ve heard the live stuff. (The Bootleg Series Vol. 5: Bob Dylan Live 1975, The Rolling Thunder Revue –ed.)
POLITICS, PERFORMANCE, AND THE PENCIL-THIN MOUSTACHE
JP: Well, then you know. I wish I was on that tour. Wait–what’s your own personal Dylan?
ECIBS: The era of Don’t Look Back through Nashville Skyline. Everything up til Self-Portrait and New Morning.
JP: Yours is a very ’60′s Dylan.
ECIBS: And yours is a creature of the ’70′s.
JP: We all fetishize certain eras, in terms of American music, I’ve always been pissed that I missed the late ’50′s and the ’70′s. Rolling Thunder was right when I was born. I don’t wish that I was at Newport, for instance, but I wish I was on that weird tour, the first leg; New England with T-Bone Burnett and Ginsberg and Baez and Mick Ronson. When Dylan’s voice was in super-fine form, and he was giving the best live shows that he ever would give. A mature artist in his prime without the crap of the ‘60’s hanging over everything.
ECIBS: Which crap, exactly?
JP: The knee-jerk politicization of music. Dylan is a content guy, not a context guy. The official bootleg of that tour, like the live Buddokan album, is my own specific Dylan. I know people who can only hack the 1961-63 ragamuffin-poet or some who favor only the pointy-shoed rocker of 1966.
ECIBS: Who is Sean Wilentz’s personal Dylan?
JP: He’s cagey about it. Young Greenwich Village Dylan, definitely, but also I think– weirdly–the mature Dylan, the Dylan of ten years ago until today. The riverboat gambler outfit, the country and western suit with the hat and tuxedo stripes.
ECIBS: The pencil-thin moustache.
JP: Right.
ECIBS: Is that a contrivance? Is that look “inauthentic”?
JP: It’s authentic to the songs, and to the act of playing the songs. It’s a stage costume, appropriate to show business. It’s a calculated decision in order to help him be a popular show business performer, just like naming yourself Bob Dylan is a decision, or coming up with cool names for albums. He says himself that he doesn’t live in a vacuum, he’s writing songs for actual people, and he’s honoring this extreme bargain where he goes out on most nights of any given year and plays the songs for those people.
ECIBS: He’s just a song and dance man.
JP: Well, he says that to a reporter in the ‘60’s and it’s a famous ironic quote but I’d say it’s as accurate as anything he ever said about himself. He tells Gates he’s a “burlesque” performer. Dylan was an Elvis kid, a Little Richard fan, a Buddy Holly kid. To me, and, I think, to Wilentz, the most important thing about Dylan is not his folk music period, but the fact that he moved past that and had so many periods. Visual artists are allowed to do that, but most pop performers are resented for it. And the country-gentleman outfit is better than the electric blue sleeveless T-shirt and eyeliner he wore to the Grammies that time.
ECIBS: Seriously?
JP: The ‘80’s were tough fashion times.
ECIBS: I’ll Google-image that. So how does Wilentz dispense with the born-again period?
JP: He doesn’t dispense with it, he writes a lot about it, very seriously. Before this book I’d have said that Dylan “went Christian” just for the songs, simply because gospel music is such a huge part of the American songbook. Sort of like the way he did a Christmas album in 2009, because performers have always done Christmas albums. But according to Wilentz, Dylan was a seeker, he was on a journey, and in that period ( Slow Train Coming, Saved, Shot of Love) he was a genuine believer in that doctrine.
ECIBS: Until he wasn’t anymore.
JP: Right. Wilentz seems to love those songs. And those are not bad albums, I feel like I have to defend those albums to people. Still, Wilentz writes a lot about the Christian Dylan, and it’s hard for me to believe that those three albums–which I do like–could fuel anybodys’ favorite period.
ECIBS: Maybe he sees it as untrod turf, critically.
JP: I think you’re right. It could be he’s trying to colonize, in a critical way, two of the most overlooked periods, the born-again albums and the most recent albums. Also the under-appreciated tweener albums like World Gone Wrong and Good as I Been To You. But I like him for giving time to Infidels, though he’s obsessed with the exclusion of the song Blind Willie McTell from that album. I like him for that obsession, very fanboy of him. His book is exhausting, sort of like this interview. (Laughs.) And don’t forget that Wilentz is a sort of in-house historian for Dylan’s official website, so everything he says is colored by that.
ECIBS: Is it?
JP: It has to be. How could it not be? Not that Wilentz is hiding that fact. He mentions it in his book, he writes very frankly about his own writing and his fandom, though a lot of the book is historicity and postulation.
LABELS, EPITHETS, AND LEG-WORK
ECIBS: About what?
JP: His central thesis, if there is one, seems to be that Dylan is a “minstrel,” a “songster.” He also has his own string of epithets he uses for Dylan, some familiar, like “sponge,” “magpie,” and “alchemist.” But minstrel and songster are his terms. He seems to be passionate about 1963-Dylan, mainly because he attended the 1963 Philharmonic Hall concert in New York as a thirteen-year-old. A live recording of that concert has recently been released and the topic gets a chapter. Though he also has a chapter on the Rolling Thunder/Desire tour. He seems to like it all.
ECIBS: What does Wilentz tell us about Dylan and performance?
JP: He does write that the Rolling Thunder sets were dynamic in a way that Dylan never had been before and never would be again. But there’s a huge Brecht connection with Dylan that Wilentz is sort of breezy about it. He flubs it, ignores it. He quotes Dylan that Dylan’s exposure to Brecht was “a revelation” but he mostly distances Dylan from what he (Wilentz) calls Brecht and Kurt Weill’s “Marxist apocalypse.” But Wilentz does point out that “Pirate Jenny” begat Dylan’s When the Ship Comes In, and he even claims that the Brecht material led Dylan into the songs of Blonde on Blonde, particularly Visions of Johanna. But the Gates interview from 1997 is more revealing and succinct about Dylan’s stagewise rejuvenation in 1987.
ECIBS: What does Wilentz miss in terms of the Brecht connection?
JP: I know that (ECIBS editor) Norm Roessler has written about the Brecht thing, and has something more in the works, an article or something, about the Dylan-Brecht connection. Part of it is literally in Dylan’s autobiography, but Roessler is taking it somewhere very interesting. Wilentz, for his part, spins a long early chapter connecting Dylan not to Brecht but to the composer Aaron Copland, and this connection is a stretch, it comes off as contrived.
ECIBS: Have you heard the theory that Dylan meant “Johanna” as code for the ancient Hebrew word Gehenna, meaning hell? That it’s concerned with visions of Hell?
JP: Visions of hell? Wilentz says that Dylan “disdained ideology” and I agree with that, mostly.
ECIBS: But surely you wouldn’t say that he wasn’t above trafficking in religious constructs for his songs?
JP: Not at all, I just like Visions of Johanna as a song about, well, awful loss and being stranded, or about being discarded maybe, but not necessarily about an ancient concept of the underworld. But that’s me. I have my own image of Dylan-the-poet which is Dylan-the-Romantic poet. Descriptive in a poetic way, but also in a way that is non-literal. That song (Visions of Johanna) has a country music station in it, that song has hookers and the subway, the all-night girls on the D train. I know the term “visions” is strong and resonant, and the sound of the song is end-of-times and aching, I’m scared of that song just like everybody else, but to me it’s about a girl, or losing a girl, or being with one girl while you think of another. That’s scary enough.
ECIBS: Fair enough. Dylan hasn’t said either way, I don’t think. He did say that Blonde on Blonde was the closest he came to finding his perfect sound.
JP: Yeah, and Bringing it All Back Home. I know he says that in a Playboy interview from the ‘70’s. Another one of my favorite interviews Dylan ever did. And he name-checks Highway 61, too, as a time where he captured the sound that’s in his head. Those three records. What he called that “thin, wild mercury sound” or something.
ECIBS: Apparently Visions of Johanna took a long time to get right.
JP: It’s covered in the Wilentz book. He goes on in great detail about the recording of it, when it was called Seems Like a Freeze Out. (Keyboardist) Al Kooper is interviewed. Wilentz is a sort of musico-archaeologist and discovers, for instance, that Rick Danko of The Band played bass on those sessions, that it’s his bass on a lot of the album’s finished songs, though he was never named on any liner notes or credits.
ECIBS: Leg-work.
JP: Wilentz does a whole lot of excellent rock-critic leg-work. He is a dogged music-critic detective. Not to compare the two books too much, but Kaufman is the scholar here, in the traditional sense, and Wilentz seems caught somewhere between Greil Marcus and, well, actual liner notes for a box set or something. And Wilentz does write those in real life; liner notes. He was nominated for a Grammy for that, as he also points out.
ECIBS: And Will Kaufman?
JP: Well, you know, he plays. He performs Guthrie’s songs. He’s an American academic who works in England at the University of Central Lancashire and plays Guthrie music to European audiences to keep it alive, to keep it in the air. Did you read the Kaufman book?
ECIBS: If this goes well I won’t have to, you’ll tell me everything.
JP: No, buy the Kaufman book. It’s got many small moments like, a typical scenario is when Guthrie lands a Decca recording contract in ‘52. And he says to a friend, apparently tongue-in-cheek but not really tongue-in-cheek, “Just don’t think that the Decca Recording Company has got me wrapped up around any of their little finger; I was born to be a reddical and and the life and death of a reddical is the only kind of a life and death I’d sign up with.” And Kaufman tells us how immediately after that, because of HUAC and McCarthy, Decca dropped him anyway.
ECIBS: And the Wilentz book?
JP: Read it. Whether to buy it as opposed to get it from the library, depends on your level of Dylan fandom. It’s significant in Dylanology for the scholarship of some of the chapters. Others are padded-out reviews and musings. Take it out of the library, maybe, unless you are trying to build a complete Dylan critical library. I borrowed my review copy but I’ll be buying a copy of my own when I have to give it back. The Kaufman book is a must-buy. A story of Woody Guthrie told with a kind of sidewise affection and accuracy that only adds up to reverence if you-the-reader personally revere Guthrie. It’s cold-blooded and clear-eyed. Just, deadly accuracy.
They had different philosophies. Back in the 70’s Dylan said that he never renounced a role in politics, because he never played one in the first place. He told Playboy that. His thing is songs, not proselytising, though he did proselytise when it seemed that everybody else was doing it.
LINKS AND ORIGINS
ECIBS: Dylan’s religion is songs. And Guthrie’s was–
JP: That Brechtian “Marxist apocalypse” that Wilentz writes about. The working man. All the things that sound cliched now, but were life-and-death for Guthrie, literally.
ECIBS: What is the real link between these two figures?
JP: I can say that in the popular imagination, there’s no doubt that the link is the story of a baby Dylan showing up at Guthrie’s hospital in New Jersey when Guthrie was ill with Huntington’s.
ECIBS: But that’s not the true connection?

Bob Dylan and Ramblin' Jack Elliott
JP: What do you mean true? Musical? The musical connection is the 200 or so songs of Guthrie’s that Dylan knew how to play by the time he showed up at that hospital. And all the old songs they both knew. Or the 2,000 songs Guthrie wrote. Or, I don’t know, maybe in some ways the link between the two of them is not them with each other, but Pete Seeger between them. Or Jack Elliot. Woody Guthrie was the center of Bob Dylan’s universe at one time, to hear Dylan tell it. Some cranks will say that Dylan betrayed or subverted what Guthrie was about. But Dylan loved those songs, and he was a folkie because he wanted to be a folkie, until he followed his interest elsewhere. Back to rock and roll, actually. It was a return. He is not form Oklahoma in the twenties.
ECIBS: Neither was Jack Elliot.
JP: Yeah, Ramblin’ Jack Elliot. His daughter made a documentary of him, you know.
ECIBS: Born Elliot Adnopoz or something. From Brooklyn.
JP: But I would call him authentic in every way.
ECIBS: Why?
JP: Because that’s the way I feel about him. He’s a traveling bard. A busker. He explains it in his own movie. He’s self-aware. And Kaufman quotes Elliot as saying he was always more into the singing-cowboy thing than he was interested Guthrie’s politics. Not everybody can be into the politics like Guthrie was, and there very few of his peers that he didn’t badmouth as sell-outs.
ECIBS: Is that what authentic means, being self-aware?
J
P: That’s your word, authentic. It reminds me of a jeans ad or something. Is it authentic to write and re-write Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands in one night at a sound-studio piano while your musicians wait for you and play ping pong? Kris Kristofferson was a janitor in the studio in Nashville that night. He and another guy tell the story in Wilentz’s book. Dylan drank Cokes all night, never took his shades off, never went to the bathroom, and by morning had written Sad-Eyed Lady.
ECIBS: I guess that word authentic isn’t very useful.
JP: No. It’s a context word. I prefer the content, both of the songs and of the individual life stories. These books can be read both ways, depending on which one you’re looking for. And one of Dylan’s most memorable, personal lines, in Sara off of Blood on the Tracks, is about staying up all night in the Chelsea Hotel, “writing Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands for you.” Which apparently didn’t happen. But that could be one reason why we read these books, it doesn’t matter which.
ECIBS: Which what?
JP: Which reason. The content or the context. In Guthries’ case, as a defining moment, I think of him cracking wise, bravely, on the bus in Peekskill when he and the other Paul Robeson supporters were being murderously attacked by the police and the residents up there, attacked with rocks and clubs. Some people will look to place these guys in a larger framework, in a political or poetical tradition, and those people will read into the songs and the behaviors. Some other people just want some good background on the songs they love.
ECIBS: Which is the right way to go?
JP: Just down I guess. Dylan, Guthrie. These are rabbit holes you can fall into, we know that. You could get lost in the albums, in the scholarship, in the bootlegs, in Youtube, or in the history around it all. With Guthrie, maybe even more so. Kaufman and Wilentz are both reporting from somewhere deep down the rabbit hole. It makes you want to stop talking about it and just listen to the records.
END
*Wilentz: “Apparently, unless Dylan performs according to a politically-correct line, he is corrupt, even immoral. He is not allowed to be an artist, he must be an agitator. And he can only be an agitator if he sings particular songs.”)